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The Herbie Flowers Argument

Brainstorming Will Lion
Image courtesy

There's a school of opinion, supported by the kind of research that Will has quoted above, that suggests that the best ideas are the product of individual inspiration rather than group effort. The opposing sides of this debate were played out on a recent WORD magazine podcast, but discussed first by Elvis Costello in this interview last year, in the form of what David Hepworth calls 'The Herbie Flowers Argument' which goes something like this: How remarkable is Lou Reed's "Walk On The Wild Side" without that string bass part which is provided by Herbie?

In music, it's not an insignificant question – relative remuneration of band members depends on it, and there are those that suggest that the people who perform on songs but don't write them should still benefit from the revenue for as long as the songwriter. And in spite of the fact that, as Elvis says, there are players that have "lit up records, and that's the thing that you actually remember", many such contributions go largely unrecognised. But then you have to say that none of it would have happened if Lou Reed hadn't written the song in the first place.So my question is this. Is this true of advertising? Are the great advertising and marketing ideas more likely to be the product of individual genius or the sum of collective contribution and inspiration?

28 responses to “The Herbie Flowers Argument”

  1. Stan Lee Avatar
    Stan Lee

    A wise man once told me that creativity was all about karma. The more ideas you give away, the more ideas you will have.
    When I look back on my career, virtually every piece of award winning work I ever created had the name of someone on it who wasn’t integral to the original idea.
    Why?
    Because I believe that if those people hadn’t have been involved along the way then those ideas may not have come to fruition.
    However:
    I think brainstorms are a waste of time. What I am talking about is collaboration a-la Herbie Flowers.
    PS: Ask Lou Reed and he’ll tell you the real hero of the Transformer sessions was Mick Ronson.

  2. Stan Lee Avatar
    Stan Lee

    A wise man once told me that creativity was all about karma. The more ideas you give away, the more ideas you will have.
    When I look back on my career, virtually every piece of award winning work I ever created had the name of someone on it who wasn’t integral to the original idea.
    Why?
    Because I believe that if those people hadn’t have been involved along the way then those ideas may not have come to fruition.
    However:
    I think brainstorms are a waste of time. What I am talking about is collaboration a-la Herbie Flowers.
    PS: Ask Lou Reed and he’ll tell you the real hero of the Transformer sessions was Mick Ronson.

  3. eaon Avatar
    eaon

    its exactly as you say in the Lou reed example Neil. an individual can light the initial spark
    and others can add with their specialities.
    There’s the whole Bowie influence on Transformer too…
    a great ad or marketing thought written obviously doesn’t come to life til its executed, then its the contribution of director, camera or design and code or whatever. its about turning ideas into action and that.

  4. eaon Avatar
    eaon

    its exactly as you say in the Lou reed example Neil. an individual can light the initial spark
    and others can add with their specialities.
    There’s the whole Bowie influence on Transformer too…
    a great ad or marketing thought written obviously doesn’t come to life til its executed, then its the contribution of director, camera or design and code or whatever. its about turning ideas into action and that.

  5. eaon Avatar
    eaon

    @stan syncronicity..we both cited the Bowie (and by default Ronson) influence

  6. eaon Avatar
    eaon

    @stan syncronicity..we both cited the Bowie (and by default Ronson) influence

  7. Scamp Avatar
    Scamp

    An idea, by definition, is an event that can only occur inside the brain of a single individual.
    We shouldn’t expect groups to have ideas. Groups can’t have ideas. Only individuals can. Even then, only some individuals can. Not everyone is creative. Some people are analytical. (Okay, I’m not saying the analytical types never have an idea. Just not very often. But that’s cool. A business needs more than just creative people).
    So the idea will come from an individual. The question becomes, how to help him?
    Is it better to surround them with some other people (a brainstorm) or give them some time, some peace & quiet, on their own or with a partner?
    I don’t know the answer. But if that geezer has done the research on it, then maybe he does.
    Personally I don’t like brainstorms, because if there are non-creative people in there, coming up with truly terrible ideas, I get embarrassed for them, and I don’t think it’s a good use of their time. Better to have them do stuff they are good at. Just like no one ever asks me to do TGI runs or prepare finance reports.

  8. Scamp Avatar
    Scamp

    An idea, by definition, is an event that can only occur inside the brain of a single individual.
    We shouldn’t expect groups to have ideas. Groups can’t have ideas. Only individuals can. Even then, only some individuals can. Not everyone is creative. Some people are analytical. (Okay, I’m not saying the analytical types never have an idea. Just not very often. But that’s cool. A business needs more than just creative people).
    So the idea will come from an individual. The question becomes, how to help him?
    Is it better to surround them with some other people (a brainstorm) or give them some time, some peace & quiet, on their own or with a partner?
    I don’t know the answer. But if that geezer has done the research on it, then maybe he does.
    Personally I don’t like brainstorms, because if there are non-creative people in there, coming up with truly terrible ideas, I get embarrassed for them, and I don’t think it’s a good use of their time. Better to have them do stuff they are good at. Just like no one ever asks me to do TGI runs or prepare finance reports.

  9. Rob Mortimer Avatar
    Rob Mortimer

    I think the clear answer to this question is both. Just as you have great bands, you have great writers who can’t sing, great singers who cant write.
    Look at Elton John and Bernie Taupin. Two talented (lets just go along with the comparison) people who are both great at their roles, but who can’t create at their best without working together.
    Likewise for every Cabral or John Webster there is creative team who work perfectly together, or whose work with their best planner adds good ideas to their original creativity. Or the account man who sells something outlandish that would otherwise be an idea forever.

  10. Rob Mortimer Avatar
    Rob Mortimer

    I think the clear answer to this question is both. Just as you have great bands, you have great writers who can’t sing, great singers who cant write.
    Look at Elton John and Bernie Taupin. Two talented (lets just go along with the comparison) people who are both great at their roles, but who can’t create at their best without working together.
    Likewise for every Cabral or John Webster there is creative team who work perfectly together, or whose work with their best planner adds good ideas to their original creativity. Or the account man who sells something outlandish that would otherwise be an idea forever.

  11. neilperkin Avatar
    neilperkin

    OK, I buy that an idea can only come from one person, but (to play devils advocate here) some ideas seem to build from nothing don’t they? One person says something, another builds on that, someone else takes that in a slightly different direction etc etc. Not particularly a fan of brainstorming either but ideas like that are much harder to pin down…

  12. neilperkin Avatar
    neilperkin

    OK, I buy that an idea can only come from one person, but (to play devils advocate here) some ideas seem to build from nothing don’t they? One person says something, another builds on that, someone else takes that in a slightly different direction etc etc. Not particularly a fan of brainstorming either but ideas like that are much harder to pin down…

  13. peggy Avatar
    peggy

    i think it always depends on the people involved. how they work best. i see idea creation as a process. i d like to work in a small team (of two) at certain stages of development. after thinking about things on my own for a little while. other people can be inspiring and seeing things from a different angle. they can take an idea further, support it with their own views and can see flaws i maybe haven t recognised before. but, i think a brainstorming can only work out very well, if the people participating actually know each other well and are able to communicate on a certain level.
    just my 2 cents

  14. peggy Avatar
    peggy

    i think it always depends on the people involved. how they work best. i see idea creation as a process. i d like to work in a small team (of two) at certain stages of development. after thinking about things on my own for a little while. other people can be inspiring and seeing things from a different angle. they can take an idea further, support it with their own views and can see flaws i maybe haven t recognised before. but, i think a brainstorming can only work out very well, if the people participating actually know each other well and are able to communicate on a certain level.
    just my 2 cents

  15. eaon Avatar
    eaon

    ps just went back and read that Elvis costello interview. absolutely brilliant.

  16. eaon Avatar
    eaon

    ps just went back and read that Elvis costello interview. absolutely brilliant.

  17. Jim Boulton Avatar
    Jim Boulton

    Who created Spiderman, Stan Lee, the guy who dreamt up the web-slinging superhero or Steve Ditko, the cartoonist that bought him to life? In my eyes, the answer is Stan Lee but plenty of people would argue that the idea is the easy part, it’s the execution and refinement that’s tricky.

  18. Jim Boulton Avatar
    Jim Boulton

    Who created Spiderman, Stan Lee, the guy who dreamt up the web-slinging superhero or Steve Ditko, the cartoonist that bought him to life? In my eyes, the answer is Stan Lee but plenty of people would argue that the idea is the easy part, it’s the execution and refinement that’s tricky.

  19. David Hepworth Avatar
    David Hepworth

    I think pop music presents unique challenges in this area. “Transformer” is Lou Reed’s biggest album. It’s his biggest album because it’s got “Walk On The Wild Side” on it. “Walk On The Wild Side” was a big hit for many reasons but one of the top three is Herbie Flowers’ bass part. I would imagine he got a session fee out of it. Pop is full of examples of records being illuminated by licks which were invented on the day by somebody paid by the day. That’s why Procol Harum are still in court over the organ part on “Whiter Shade Of Pale” forty years later. That’s why Alan Price felt he was entitled to credit “House Of The Rising Sun” to “trad. arr Price”. Because without his organ solo it’s simply not the same.

  20. David Hepworth Avatar
    David Hepworth

    I think pop music presents unique challenges in this area. “Transformer” is Lou Reed’s biggest album. It’s his biggest album because it’s got “Walk On The Wild Side” on it. “Walk On The Wild Side” was a big hit for many reasons but one of the top three is Herbie Flowers’ bass part. I would imagine he got a session fee out of it. Pop is full of examples of records being illuminated by licks which were invented on the day by somebody paid by the day. That’s why Procol Harum are still in court over the organ part on “Whiter Shade Of Pale” forty years later. That’s why Alan Price felt he was entitled to credit “House Of The Rising Sun” to “trad. arr Price”. Because without his organ solo it’s simply not the same.

  21. neilperkin Avatar
    neilperkin

    Very true David. Thanks for the comment and for stopping by. Big fan of what you do at The Word

  22. neilperkin Avatar
    neilperkin

    Very true David. Thanks for the comment and for stopping by. Big fan of what you do at The Word

  23. giles rhys jones Avatar
    giles rhys jones

    how about a asynchronous brainstorming? more to follow soon…

  24. giles rhys jones Avatar
    giles rhys jones

    how about a asynchronous brainstorming? more to follow soon…

  25. gift philippines Avatar
    gift philippines

    Just remember we need to cooperate to make the work success.
    -Ashley

  26. gift philippines Avatar
    gift philippines

    Just remember we need to cooperate to make the work success.
    -Ashley

  27. Denzel Collins Avatar
    Denzel Collins

    I wonder if Elvis Costello paid royalties to the guys in Clover for backing his first album “My Aim is True”. Look them up; they were a folk rock band from California. It’s a shame that a lot of these session guys ands gals live out their lives in relative obscurity while the record labels get rich on their efforts and talents.

  28. Denzel Collins Avatar
    Denzel Collins

    I wonder if Elvis Costello paid royalties to the guys in Clover for backing his first album “My Aim is True”. Look them up; they were a folk rock band from California. It’s a shame that a lot of these session guys ands gals live out their lives in relative obscurity while the record labels get rich on their efforts and talents.

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